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Old Mar 28, 2008, 07:19 PM // 19:19   #101
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Originally Posted by Antheus
The reason for this lies somewhere else - piracy. There is none on consoles (noteworthy), whereas anything not completely online on PC has 90%+ piracy rate these days.
piracy exists on consoles more than you think.
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Old Mar 28, 2008, 07:27 PM // 19:27   #102
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Best stuff I've ever read on the topic here

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Originally Posted by Draginol

Piracy & PC Gaming
By Draginol Posted March 10, 2008 20:48:46

Recently there has been a lot of talk about how piracy affects PC gaming. And if you listen to game developers, it apparently is a foregone conclusion - if a high quality PC game doesn't sell as many copies as it should, it must be because of piracy.

Now, I don't like piracy at all. It really bugs me when I see my game up on some torrent site just on the principle of the matter. And piracy certainly does cost sales. But arguing that piracy is the primary factor in lower sales of well made games? I don't think so. People who never buy software aren't lost sales.
Is it about business or glory?

Most people who know of Stardock in the gaming world think of it as a tiny indie shop. And we certainly are tiny in terms of game development. But in the desktop enhancement market, Stardock owns that market and it's a market with many millions of users. According to CNET, 6 of the top 10 most popular desktop enhancements are developed by Stardock. Our most popular desktop enhancement, WindowBlinds, has almost 14 million downloads just on Download.com. We have over a million registered users.

If you want to talk about piracy, talk about desktop enhancements. The piracy on that is huge. But the question isn't about piracy. It's about sales.

So here is the deal: When you develop for a market, you don't go by the user base. You go by the potential customer base. That's what most software companies do. They base what they want to create on the size of the market they're developing for. But not PC game developers.

PC game developers seem to focus more on the "cool" factor. What game can they make that will get them glory with the game magazines and gaming websites and hard core gamers? These days, it seems like game developers want to be like rock stars more than businessmen. I've never considered myself a real game developer. I'm a gamer who happens to know how to code and also happens to be reasonably good at business.

So when I make a game, I focus on making games that I think will be the most profitable. As a gamer, I like most games. I love Bioshock. I think the Orange Box is one of the best gaming deals ever. I love Company of Heroes and Oblivion was captivating. My two favorite games of all time are Civilization (I, II, III, and IV) and Total Annihilation. And I won't even get into the hours lost in WoW. Heck, I even like The Sims.

So when it comes time to make a game, I don't have a hard time thinking of a game I'd like to play. The hard part is coming up with a game that we can actually make that will be profitable. And that means looking at the market as a business not about trying to be "cool".
Making games for customers versus making games for users

So even though Galactic Civilizations II sold 300,000 copies making 8 digits in revenue on a budget of less than $1 million, it's still largely off the radar. I practically have to agree to mow editors lawns to get coverage. And you should see Jeff Green's (Games for Windows) yard. I still can't find my hedge trimmers.

Another game that has been off the radar until recently was Sins of a Solar Empire. With a small budget, it has already sold about 200,000 copies in the first month of release. It's the highest rated PC game of 2008 and probably the best selling 2008 PC title. Neither of these titles have CD copy protection.

And yet we don't get nearly the attention of other PC games. Lack of marketing on our part? We bang on the doors for coverage as next as the next shop. Lack of advertising? Open up your favorite PC game publication for the past few months and take note of all the 2 page spreads for Sins of a Solar Empire. So we certainly try.

But we still don't get the editorial buzz that some of the big name titles do because our genre isn't considered as "cool" as other genres. Imagine what our sales would be if our games had gotten game magazine covers and just massive editorial coverage like some of the big name games get. I don't want to suggest we get treated poorly by game magazine and web sites (not just because I fear them -- which I do), we got good preview coverage on Sins, just not the same level as one of the "mega" titles would get. Hard core gamers have different tastes in games than the mainstream PC gaming market of game buyers. Remember Roller Coaster Tycoon? Heck, how much buzz does The Sims get in terms of editorial when compared to its popularity. Those things just aren't that cool to the hard core gaming crowd that everything seems geared toward despite the fact that they're not the ones buying most of the games.

I won't even mention some of the big name PC titles that GalCiv and Sins have outsold. There's plenty of PC games that have gotten dedicated covers that haven't sold as well. So why is that?

Our games sell well for three reasons. First, they're good games which is a pre-requisite. But there's lots of great games that don't sell well.

The other two reasons are:

* Our games work on a very wide variety of hardware configurations.
* Our games target genres with the largest customer bases per cost to produce for.


We also don't make games targeting the Chinese market

When you make a game for a target market, you have to look at how many people will actually buy your game combined with how much it will cost to make a game for that target market. What good is a large number of users if they're not going to buy your game? And what good is a market where the minimal commitment to make a game for it is $10 million if the target audience isn't likely to pay for the game?

If the target demographic for your game is full of pirates who won't buy your game, then why support them? That's one of the things I have a hard time understanding. It's irrelevant how many people will play your game (if you're in the business of selling games that is). It's only relevant how many people are likely to buy your game.

Stardock doesn't make games targeting the Chinese market. If we spent $10 million on a PC game explicitly for the Chinese market and we lost our shirts, would you really feel that much sympathy for us? Or would you think "Duh."


You need a machine how fast?

Anyone who keeps track of how many PCs the "Gamer PC" vendors sell each year could tell you that it's insane to develop a game explicitly for hard core gamers. Insane. I think people would be shocked to find out how few hard core gamers there really are out there. This data is available. The number of high end graphics cards sold each year isn't a trade secret (in some cases you may have to get an NDA but if you're a partner you can find out). So why are companies making games that require them to sell to 15% of a given market to be profitable? In what other market do companies do that? In other software markets, getting 1% of the target market is considered good. If you need to sell 500,000 of your game to break even and your game requires Pixel Shader 3 to not look like crap or play like crap, do you you really think that there are 50 MILLION PC users with Pixel Shader 3 capable machines who a) play games and b) will actually buy your game if a pirated version is available?

In our case, we make games that target the widest possible audience as long as as we can still deliver the gaming experience we set out to. Anyone who's looked at the graphics in Sins of a Solar Empire would, I think, agree that the graphics are pretty phenomenal (particularly space battles). But could they be even fancier? Sure. But only if we degraded the gaming experience for the largest chunk of people who buy games.


The problem with blaming piracy

I don't want anyone to walk away from this article thinking I am poo-pooing the effect of piracy. I'm not. I definitely feel for game developers who want to make kick ass PC games who see their efforts diminished by a bunch of greedy pirates. I just don't count pirates in the first place. If you're a pirate, you don't get a vote on what gets made -- or you shouldn't if the company in question is trying to make a profit.

The reason why we don't put CD copy protection on our games isn't because we're nice guys. We do it because the people who actually buy games don't like to mess with it. Our customers make the rules, not the pirates. Pirates don't count. We know our customers could pirate our games if they want but choose to support our efforts. So we return the favor - we make the games they want and deliver them how they want it. This is also known as operating like every other industry outside the PC game industry.

One of the jokes I've seen in the desktop enhancement market is how "ugly" WindowBlinds skins are (though there are plenty of awesome ones too). But the thing is, the people who buy WindowBlinds tend to like a different style of skin than the people who would never buy it in the first place. Natural selection, so to speak, over many years has created a number of styles that seem to be unique to people who actually buy WindowBlinds. That's the problem with piracy. What gets made targets people who buy it, not the people who would never buy it in the first place. When someone complains about "fat borders" on some popular WindowBlinds skin my question is always "Would you buy WindowBlinds even if there was a perfect skin for you?" and the answer is inevitably "Probably not". That's how it works in every market -- the people who buy stuff call the shots. Only in the PC game market are the people who pirate stuff still getting the overwhelming percentage of development resources and editorial support.

When you blame piracy for disappointing sales, you tend to tar the entire market with a broad brush. Piracy isn't evenly distributed in the PC gaming market. And there are far more effective ways of getting people who might buy your product to buy it without inconveniencing them.

Blaming piracy is easy. But it hides other underlying causes. When Sins popped up as the #1 best selling game at retail a couple weeks ago, a game that has no copy protect whatsoever, that should tell you that piracy is not the primary issue.

In the end, the pirates hurt themselves. PC game developers will either slowly migrate to making games that cater to the people who buy PC games or they'll move to platforms where people are more inclined to buy games.

In the meantime, if you want to make profitable PC games, I'd recommend focusing more effort on satisfying the people willing to spend money on your product and less effort on making what others perceive as hot. But then again, I don't romanticize PC game development. I just want to play cool games and make a profit on games that I work on.
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Old Mar 28, 2008, 07:34 PM // 19:34   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhearted
piracy exists on consoles more than you think.
Well, there is significant commercial piracy in asia and the former eastern bloc, but even that pales in comparison to the PC piracy. The "casual" or "amateur" piracy wrt off-line games is orders of magnitude less than on PC.

Case in point: Doom3. Everyone and their grandmother have played Doom3, yet it only sold just a little over 1 million copies. More copies were downloaded from filesharing networks the week before the game was released, than was sold in the first months after release (when typically 90% of game sales take place).
This isn't unique. This is what happens to PC games unless they are protected by requiring on-line server accounts, like GW, or are aimed at non-gamers, like the Sims.

This is why PC gaming is increasingly focussed on on-line play (with server accounts) and why all other forms of gaming have largely migrated to consoles.
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Old Mar 28, 2008, 07:39 PM // 19:39   #104
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I for one would be extremely happy to see the UT3 Engine. The graphics looks great and require very low system requirements, which is good news for people without a gaming rig
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Old Mar 28, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55   #105
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if GW2 will be with graphics like Turok about 75% of the GW players now won't be able to play GW2
and i've seen Turok (runs on U3 engine) and it's amazing
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Old Mar 28, 2008, 11:51 PM // 23:51   #106
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Considering GW2 is going in to open beta this year (if ANet is to be believed) I highly doubt they are only just licencing the engine their going to use.

Plus as has already been mentioned, their using a modified version of the GW1 engine :P.
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Old Mar 29, 2008, 01:22 AM // 01:22   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antheus
Can I play it? No? Right... Just another of million vaporware titles of coders who can make engines but couldn't make a half-decent game to save their lives.

The reason some titles started defining what gaming means is because they realized that it's the game that matters. So they got rid of coders making games for geeks, and got game designers making games for entertainment. And presto - we have EA and Vivendi defining what games are.

As for the hard-core market, that one is as big as it always was, hundreds of thousands. It's not growing or shrinking, it's just no longer financially possible to make games catering to them.

And as such, all games are getting "dumbed down" or Ursaned, by providing stylish graphics rather than ultra-fidelity for octa-SLI graphic cards.

The business reality meanwhile moves on, regardless of elitisits or populists.

PCs are now online gaming platform. Web 2.0, MySpace, Facebook games, flash games. Oh, and WoW.
Everything else is going on consoles. Development costs are 1/3 to 1/10 of PCs, there's almost no support needed, and market is well defined, so are the publishers.

Soon, PC gaming will be akin to Mac gaming. There will be literally a handful of titles, but the AAA market will move to consoles, which will perform all the functions that PCs to today with regard to entertainment.

The reason for this lies somewhere else - piracy. There is none on consoles (noteworthy), whereas anything not completely online on PC has 90%+ piracy rate these days.

And all of this has nothing to do with gamers in any way, it's just the way business works.
are you serious? really. there is so much wrong with this that it is just to funny to comment.
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Old Mar 29, 2008, 02:17 AM // 02:17   #108
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What hasn't used the U3 engine lately?

Seems every game I see uses it

PS. StarDock are great. I hate CD protection on games, sitting at the PC and thinking "hmmm I feel like playing xxxxx game". Double click the icon, "Please insert the xxx play disc", Spend 5mins looking through all my games for the right box (It's always at the bottom of the lot ) then take out the dics thats in the drive and have to find that box.

Basically starting games normally takes more time than playing a round

Last edited by JeniM; Mar 29, 2008 at 02:30 AM // 02:30..
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Old Mar 29, 2008, 07:15 AM // 07:15   #109
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Ah, was just looking for that article that Dr. Strangelove posted and was going to post it myself. It's pretty much spot on, and the success of Sins of a Solar Empire (which is an absolutely fantastic game, by the way), despite no anti-piracy at all, speaks for itself.

Really, the PC-gaming companies are the one's screwing themselves over. It's not the consumers' job or duty to upgrade their PCs into some theoretical super-computer from space and buy these games. It's the publishers and developers' jobs to sell it. Any failure for this to happen is their fault, not the consumers'.
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Old Mar 29, 2008, 08:12 AM // 08:12   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeniM
What hasn't used the U3 engine lately?

Seems every game I see uses it

PS. StarDock are great. I hate CD protection on games, sitting at the PC and thinking "hmmm I feel like playing xxxxx game". Double click the icon, "Please insert the xxx play disc", Spend 5mins looking through all my games for the right box (It's always at the bottom of the lot ) then take out the dics thats in the drive and have to find that box.

Basically starting games normally takes more time than playing a round
Which is why I almost immediately download cracks for every game I buy. I honestly don't understand why developers bother with them. They're a minor annoyance at best to pirates, and only serve to piss your honest customers off.
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Old Mar 29, 2008, 08:28 AM // 08:28   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove
Best stuff I've ever read on the topic here
BRB, ordering sins of solar empire. This guy deserves his buck for actually understanding market.
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Old Mar 29, 2008, 03:51 PM // 15:51   #112
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Draginol represents a company which makes niche products for niche players. His users are fans, they are dedicated to the games and to the company.

His games are also forever stuck in the niche market, because if they ever got mainstream appeal they'd be pirated, because they'd no longer be catering to dedicated fans.

His discussion is also a bit confused. Production values such as good graphics are only related to piracy in so far as it gives the game mainstream appeal. No-one bothers to pirate a freely redistributable game with weak graphics; every pirate will try to pirate the latest top title.

Games like Doom3 were destroyed by pirates not because they had too high production values, or too high price, or used intrusive copy protection, but because the pirates could and wanted to pirate them.

Finding and controlling a niche and building a dedicated fan-base is a good way to get a steady but small revenue, and it's worked especially well for strategy and puzzle games, where production values typically aren't very important. It is a viable strategy.

However, it's not a viable strategy for companies aiming for big sales and big revenues. Neither is, as the last 20 years of computer history shows, disk-based copy protection.

On-line gaming with on-line accounts, however, is. The basic condition to secure such a game from piracy is to stop people from setting up pirate servers - and indeed all the big players, e.g. Valve, NCSoft, and Blizzard, react quickly and violently when someone tries.
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Old Mar 29, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StardustDreamz
Congratulations on Godwinning the thread.

Anyway, the competing ideals here are elitism and populism, and neither is right or wrong. For people who want to advocate better graphics at the expense of losing some low-end machines (just an FYI, I had to turn down settings on my machine when GW came out, so it's not like it was always "low end") the main argument is that people are ignorant in their purchasing of computers and need to educate themselves so they stop getting ripped off.

The populist argument is that people don't want to learn about computers and that games should target a broad consumer base.

Personally I lean more towards the elitist crowd because making informed choices about your purchases is just a plain common sense thing to do. It wasn't that long ago when tinkering with electronics and building your own computer was normal. And, generally speaking, people who are technophobic about computers are still willing to put the effort into researching their TVs or stereo systems or cars. So the argument that game developers should cater to peoples' ignorance doesn't really fly that well with me.
I completely agree with you on that. /end thread end thread end thread
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Old Mar 29, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29   #114
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probably for aion

exteel uses unreal engine 2

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/03/25/nc...-for-two-mmos/

Last edited by LifeInfusion; Mar 29, 2008 at 06:32 PM // 18:32..
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Old Mar 30, 2008, 11:04 PM // 23:04   #115
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Just for the fun
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Old Mar 30, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antheus
Soon, PC gaming will be akin to Mac gaming. There will be literally a handful of titles, but the AAA market will move to consoles, which will perform all the functions that PCs to today with regard to entertainment.

The reason for this lies somewhere else - piracy. There is none on consoles (noteworthy), whereas anything not completely online on PC has 90%+ piracy rate these days.
This is silly. GOOD PC games do decently. It's the bad ones that had better watch out for piracy because people can get a free full demo and know to stay the hell away.

It's a similar phenomenon to the music industry. Just because people can download albums doesn't mean they don't actively support a group when they love one. The thing is people trump up pure numbers of downloads which mean nothing. Downloads don't tell you if the person enjoyed it, which is why they would have bought it. 200,000 people might download something and 500 enjoy it, can you call those other 199,500 people anything other than people just "browsing" who didn't want the product? Unfortunately, industry does instead of innovating, instead of being on top of their game, instead of making people want to line up to show support for their wonderful work, they play a fantasy blame game.
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Old Mar 31, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlikeGW
This is silly. GOOD PC games do decently. It's the bad ones that had better watch out for piracy because people can get a free full demo and know to stay the hell away.
Because when people have played through their pirated complete and fully functional copy and tired of the game, they go out and buy the original.

Yeop.

Also: wiimote: overhyped gimmick used to sell last-gen hardware.
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Old Oct 31, 2008, 03:00 PM // 15:00   #118
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I believe Lineage uses an Unreal Engine, it is probably for that.
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Old Oct 31, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50   #119
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Blade and Soul

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade_%26_Soul

Blade & Soul
Developer(s) NCsoft
Publisher(s) NCsoft
Designer(s) Hyung-tae Kim
Engine Unreal Engine 3
Platform(s) Microsoft Windows
Release date(s) TBA
Genre(s) MMORPG
Mode(s) Multiplayer
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Old Oct 31, 2008, 10:40 PM // 22:40   #120
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last post, 3/30/2008
today's date 10/31/2008
hint, hint
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